Monday, March 1, 2010

Bill My Neighbor

My esteemed colleague on the Matawan-Aberdeen School Board, Student Representative Andrew Monagle, articulated the community opposition to any program cuts – Any program that attracts student participation and has educational value should be maintained. Furthermore, all existing programs have educational value. For example, ceramics and TV production provide “career exploration”. Drivers ed satisfies a state requirement towards acquiring a driver’s permit. Golf has the educational benefits of any successful athletic program.

Since any program with student participation can find some justification, the logical outcome is - Don’t cut any student programs. Give the kids what they want and bill it to the taxpayer.

I respectfully dissent.

The critical issue is how one views taxes. Those opposed to cutting any student programs or services view taxes as the cost of living in a nice community. You want good schools, paved roads, a safe neighborhood, clean parks, etc.? Well, this is what it’s going to cost you. And, if you don’t like it, you’re free to move (as if uprooting your family, selling your house, and finding a new home were as easy as changing TV channels).

I view taxes as property seizures. I envision men with guns garnering your wages, plundering your bank account, and taking your home. Why? Because your neighbors voted to take more of your money than you could afford or ever agreed to pay.

Taxes are only a necessary evil when they support necessary expenditures. Otherwise, they’re just evil.

We’re spending over $600 for every student taking ceramics or TV production. Another $350 per student taking drivers ed. How can we justify forcing one person, under threat of losing his house, to pay for another person’s golf instruction?

How about a gun club? Citizens have the constitutional right to bear arms, gun safety is very important, and there are many occupations that require the use of firearms, such as law enforcement, security, and military. I’m also guessing it would be very popular.

Would we force our neighbors to pay for training sixteen-year-olds how to fire a rifle?

How about martial arts, scuba diving, or magic? Using student participation and “educational value” as the sole criteria, what program wouldn’t justify us picking our neighbors’ pockets?

Does this mean we’d end all electives outside of core requirements? Absolutely not. It does mean that, before confiscating our neighbors’ property, a program would have to meet a higher threshold than student popularity.

In my opinion, a program must meet four criteria to warrant taxation:

  1. The money must be used “to pay the debts [or] provide for the common defense [or] general welfare” of the public
  2. The benefit must outweigh the cost and burden to the taxpayers
  3. The benefit must be a legitimate role of government
  4. The public has no reasonable alternative
Does ceramics meet the threshold? The money is being used for the “general welfare” of the public, i.e. the students. Does the benefit outweigh the cost of $600 per student? No. Is teaching ceramics a legitimate role of government? Not when we have several other arts programs. Does the public have no reasonable alternatives? No. Students can enroll in a different arts program or study ceramics at one of the local private art schools.

How about drivers ed? I’d say yes to all but the 4th. Our district could lease space to competing driving schools and the students could pay private instructors.

How about golf? You’ve got to be kidding.

Remember this - If all school programs are sacred, then our private property is not.

Our country has a long tradition of balancing the majority’s will against the minority’s rights. Even if most of us want a ceramics class, we don’t have the right to make our neighbors pay for it. >>> Read more!

145 comments:

Anonymous said...

Now that you have targeted the comments of such a fine student and human being as Andrew Monagle, you have reached an all time low. You could have made your points without ever bringing his name or comments to this blog and you should have.

Erica said...

Safe driving is something that everyone is, you know, a bit concerned about, especially at the high school level. I'd say that's important for the rest of the community. And students have to pay enough (around $300) for the 6 hours of driving lessons, after taking the test offered at school. Driver's ed is something that has traditionally been offered for decades at high schools without a thought because it is that important.

And for some programs, if they are cut from the MRHS, the district will be deterring students (and their potentially good HSPA scores to boost the average) from choosing to remain at a Matawan school, exactly the opposite of what they want to be doing as proven by the expensive "Academies".

What high school course do you expect to provide for the "common defense" or "general welfare"? It's a high school class, not a new government set up by the Constitution from where you took those terms. Bring your system to the DOE and tell them that you refuse to pay for programs that do not meet your criteria and see what they say.

Aberdeener said...

Erica,

My criteria apply to all taxes but I serve on the BOE, not the DOE.

Like I said, your line of thinking means that we're funding programs based solely upon student popularity since you can always find some other justification. I guess you'd support having a magic class as well.

As for the anon poster, it's sad he can't recognize respect when he sees it. I guess respect is a foreign concept to him.

Anonymous said...

Cheap prick.

Aberdeener said...

Ah, another one of my eloquent readers. I wonder if such eloquence is matched by courage or intelligence.

Of course, that's rhetorical.

NSectionJoe said...

Do any of you have any idea how much $6,000,000.00 is? This is not childs play. This is the reality that our school district and our state is facing and will face for many years to come. It is the cause and effect of the past accepted practice of go ahead just raise taxes or from robbing Peter to pay Paul.

There will be cuts in staff, programs and extra activities in every school district in the state. That is a given and it will come with much ruckus, some may even be from not so independent directives or suggestions from coaches, teachers and staff. Yes some of whom have already told students to write letters to school administration, leadership and even Governor Christie. And yes I have a problem with that instruction or small coersions of our students, being used in that manner without knowing the facts.

My own daughter takes AP/Honors clases, college credit classes and maintains a 3.75GPA and has been for the most part an honor/merit roll student throughout her four years in high school along with a very active teenage social life. My wife and I are very proud of her, which goes without saying. My daughter has also taken dance, chorus and even the much talked about ceramics throughout this same period. In fact I found her ceramics to be very creative by the way and was very impressed with the projects she brought home. However, the reality is that such classes and activities for probably 97% of the student body will not lead to lifelong careers in ceramic artistry. Neither will my daughter become a dancer at Lincoln Center or be singer at the Metropolitan Opera.

The costs of such programs do not lead to the whole of what is needed to live and prosper in our society. Art, dance and many other non-esential activities, instruction or programs simply cannot be sustained for the whole at the exapense of true instruction required to live ones life.

The changes needed in our government, school and society must not continue to be based upon I want it and that is that, my constituency wants it or the best and most costly I have been lobbied to bring that back for my biggest political contributor. That thought process and accepted practices have pervaded our society and governmental, leadership and societal thought processes for far too long. It has gotten us into the financial shape we are in all across the board, all the way down to our own checkbooks.

The priority that has become pervasive in our school system, governmental leadership and more importantly in our society, is that we want it all and don't care what it costs the the rest of us, on the whole. This is also the thought processes of our governmental leadership for far too long, and that cost is monumental on a far grander scale then many of us could ever realize. When you go into New York City and you see the Debt Clock it moves at an alarming rate. With recent choices enacted by our governemental leadership, they will soon add another zero at least to the end of the debt clock. When last I saw the clock my families share was $35,000.00 as I recall. It has been a while so I am sure it has increased sharply.

I viewed the presentation by Superintendent O'Malley and found it to be well presented and very informative. Likewise I thought Mr. Warren and his thoughts were well spoken and right on the mark. The suggestion by the student representative were mature, well stated and typical. Typical statements and logic were put forth from a young man who does not balance a checkbook, pay a mortgage and much less fund the schools or municipalities where decisions of the past, present and future can wreak havoc on ones quality of life and ability to survive. I did find his response mature for his age and his parents should be proud for him making such a presentation clearly and in public and sticking to his points.

Anonymous said...

I agree with nsecj, we cannot be all things to all people. It is far to costly to spend vasts amounts of money inconsequentially and expect everyones little pet project to be paid for no matter the cost or the necessity of academic instruction. I have yet to see the test given to enter college that included golf, ceramics or such similar classes or activities. Reading, writing ,arithmetic, science and other such courses are the mainstay of education. We need to get back to that.

Anonymous said...

The keep all the programs and pay the teachers whatever they want attitude has to stop. That is why we are in this situation. The only goal now is to reduce spending while minimizing the impact on the students learning. Budget cuts HAVE to be made when expenditures are exceeding revenues. Here are the options:
Reading, Language arts, Math, Science, Social Studies, or whatever (athletics, art and music, drivers ed, etc). At the end of the day, the schools first and foremost responsibility is making sure children graduate with the skill necessary to survive in the workforce. The budget should reflect cuts that are distributed across all non essential programs so that all share in the loss. Not sure this budget does that. This budget has been presented in such a vague manner it is hard for the average person to understand its impact and fairness. Maybe that's intentional because people will come out and complain to defend a pet program that gets cut. Still, we should all have a clearer view of its impact and the reasons behind the moves.

Anonymous said...

i dont understand why you put career exploration in quotes. you make it seem as if Andrew was telling a lie. such courses as ceramics and tv production are required by the state of new jersey to fulfil the nonacademic elective choices. believe it or not, not everyone in the school is going to become scientists or historians, some kids actually want to explore careers in the arts. do you really want the artistic students to be deprived of a creative outlet? by taking away these courses you want to take away a stress-free environment for the students. get a life, joe warren, and stop harrassing 18 year olds.

Anonymous said...

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound, criticizing a high school student on your inappropriate, insignificant little blog? It just shows how his opinion really got to you; you should really be ashamed...


First off, Driver's Education is a state requirement to all students of New Jersey. Although yes, it may cost more than you think it should, it is needed for all students to graduate. If you do not agree with it, Warren, bring it up to the state. Not bitch about it on your petty little blog.


Second, why are you so fixated on ceramics class? Did you have some sort of terrifying moment with the kiln when you were in high school? Really, if you did, I am quite sorry. But do not blame that on the children of the present generation, who actually want to be creative.

The first priority in secondary education is not to decide what career you want, but to explore what fields there are available to you. Having an arts program opens more doors for children who are not sure what career they want yet. This, of course, does not take away from children who want careers in fields like medicine, law and education. Students can still take their AP/Honors classes, along with any academic elective they like.

By the way, who are you to judge what courses students should take, when you have no children yourself?

Oh, and I would love to see you start your own gun club, Warren. Have the Palin family join, I'm sure they would love it...

Aberdeener said...

"by taking away these courses you want to take away a stress-free environment for the students"

Damn straight. I want our students to be challenged.

I put career exploration in quotes because we don't have a hundred kids enrolling in ceramics for career exploration.

Mr. Monagle not only spoke very well but I firmly believe he represents a sizable portion, if not majority, of the community. (He received wide applause at the board meeting and kudos on these pages.) If I didn't respect him and his views, I wouldn't have taken the time to respond.

Erica said...

You don't get to pick and choose your taxes the way your post is presented. I can't say I refuse to let my taxes fund the football team because I don't think they're important.

I realize you do not serve on the DOE, as I would hope you do not. I said that to make a point that your idea should never be brought to the state level. Your system would work with general taxes, like deciding to fund education (which is usually a given with a public school), but to get so specific as to evaluate whether high school electives have a deep enough impact on society is ridiculous.

State requirements? Who needs them? Matawan is special and can offer whatever it wants whether it follows what's mandated or not. It's okay, Warren said so.

And, hey, if you really want to throw magic classes into the equation, I'm sure it wouldn't cost a significant amount. The objective can be to make money for the budget re-appear!

Anonymous said...

We are paying a high school football coach $140K and a drivers ed teacher $107K. Do you not have a problem with such numbers? You should. Then again we pay a police chief $130K. Maybe it is just me?

Anonymous said...

Students are challenged, if they choose to be. I challenged myself all through high school and "rewarded" myself with ceramics senior year, among 5 AP classes. I entered college with 20 credits from high school, and a lot of my friends in the my class and the one above me did too. If this current senior class and the others aren't challenging themselves, that's the fault of the parents and students, not because the courses do not challenge them.

Aberdeener said...

I still don't see an answer to the post's questions -

What is the rationale for forcing taxpayers to fund a ceramics class?

Why is the ceramics class more important than allowing people to keep their money?

Anonymous said...

WHY ARE YOU SO FIXATED ON CERAMICS?!
God, you have issues, my man.

Aberdeener said...

By the way, here are the NJ graduation requirements.

I don't see driver's ed listed.

Tell me again why we're spending $350 per student for this class?

Joe M. said...

Mr. Warren, first off it warrants repeating that there was no need to call out the student himself for his statements. Although you may not agree with what he had to say, it's courageous and outgoing speakers like him that our country needs to take charge and lead us into the future. To disagree is perfectly acceptable, to chide him is simply undemocratic.

You're analysis of the golf team is off the mark. Sure, it's no hidden statement that few students participating on the golf team will use it for professional purposes later in life. But the same logic and rationale can be applied to any other sport. How many school baseball or football players will ever make a career of their sport? On a more retail level, how many will even play at the collegiate level? You can't denounce the golf program and that it essentially justifies, "picking our neighbors’ pockets," without applying the same logic to other sporting programs. Though you do not mention other athletics in your article, it’s hard to imagine you would advocate spending on those, otherwise, you would just be discriminating against the minority of students who participate in golf.

Next, you advocate the district, "could lease space to competing driving schools and the students could pay private instructors." Sir, you talk about taxes as a disincentive to the community as a whole, but leasing out property to private companies will provide exactly that- disincentive to the families of student drivers. Students in Driver's Ed spend weeks studying and learning about the rules of the road. If, in your world, you would then put the burden on the families to pay upwards of $800 (estimated $100 per week times 8 weeks of private instruction) in addition to the roughly $600 for the mandatory driving lessons with the companies to replace study time in school, you would force families to sacrifice feeding their kids and visiting doctors to pay for private instruction, or otherwise sacrifice educating their children on how to drive. These children then become a burden on other people-specifically friends who are young drivers- who will then be forced to have more people in their car, which: A. Is illegal to driver's operating under a provisional license
B. Will still cause distraction and endanger fully licensed drivers.

Driver's Ed is a simple argument, which really should be an addendum onto your “criteria"- it not only provides immediate benefit to the student, but also provides positive externalities tenfold to the surrounding community. For someone who seems well versed in economics and how to"balance a checkbook…and... fund the schools," as NSectionJoe eloquently puts it, you should understand how this affects others. The students can then take what they learn and correctly execute it for the remainder of their lives. They make the community safer by being knowledgeable in how to drive, and that helps all citizens, even those taxpayers who have no affiliation to the school district outside of that duty. Force families to seek private means and watch the adverse effects it causes.

Anonymous said...

cheap prick

Anonymous said...

Get a life.....

Joe M. said...

Furthermore, you're "gun club" metaphor is hardly applicable.You provide rationale to the statement that "it would also be very popular." With that logic, I look to see which strictly educational classes are the most popular- is it the AP classes? or is it the Track 2 classes? By that logic, since Track 2 encompasses many more students than do the AP courses, we should cut the AP's because they're less popular. Why do we not cut those classes? Because the positive externalities of students taking AP courses are beneficial past just the students' personal gains. Why not just force the kids in Track 2 to work harder and put forth more effort their education? Certainly, eliminating all the Track 2 courses would save the district plenty of money, which, I'm sure, it would gladly put towards a gun club. The logic is impeccable.

You can't just cluster all these activities together under the umbrella of "any program with student participation can find some justification." By simply looking past the elocutionary level, its easy to see the justification behind all of this.

I will conclude by utilizing your final crystallization point to your thesis on spending- 4 "The public has no reasonable alternative."

Sir, with all due respect, I firmly believe that the public has no reasonable alternative but to provide the best possible environment for its students, and also for itself. I agree that there are places where, unfortunately, cuts need to be made, the goal of the education process is to create an environment in which students can use what they learn to progress society further than our generation has done. And in order to do that, programs must be maintained.

Phillip said...

First of all, your comments about taxes are completely exaggerated. You demonize taxing by making it sound as though by keeping ceramics we are forcing all the people who don't support the class to sell their homes simply to pay for the class. You have not touched upon the fact that the majority, which you yourself said that Mr. Monagle represented, is also paying these taxes. We are not robbing our neighbors at gunpoint, as in the illustration you gave us, but we are simply the majority choosing to make a sacrifice for the well-being of our children. You wanna bitch about the minority having to pay taxes? Well that's great. It's your right too, because this is a DEMOCRACY. In a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. In truth, minority groups, through "minority" status gain influence, but in reality that's how the entire country is run. And if, as you said, the majority supports ceramics, well then that's too bad for you.

Also, Mr. Warren, I'm sorry that this isn't Candyland, but for a society to function properly, taxes are not a "necessary evil" - they are simply necessary. Plus, I would not think that you of all people would object so strongly to taxes, seeing that as a BOE member it pays your salary.

Second, you said that you wanted to challenge our students, but as the above post says you do not need to eradicate the most popular arts course in order to do this. I am currently a student at MRHS. So is my girlfriend, who taes ceramics. She is also in AP English, Pyschology, Calculus, and the highest level Italian course available. She is challenged daily, and ceramics is a fun relief for her. And guess what? You're right. Some kids take the class because they don't care. And you know what? They're not going to have some sort of life-changing epiphany because you got rid of ceramics. They're simply going to find even easier classes to bullshit their way through. And by the way: I am currently enrolled in 3 AP course, and have signed up for 5 for my senior year, so I know a thing about challenging yourself.

Oh, and by the way, I will have you know that Andrew Monagle is a good friend of mine, and an upstanding member of the MRHS student body. Regardless of your contradictory views, to bash someone in a public forum who is a student and fellow board member is completely unprofessional and disrespectful. You should be ashamed of yourself for stooping so low.

Aberdeener said...

Joe M.,

I have not chided Mr. Monagle in any way and if you think I did, you're reading something in my post that was never intended.

As for driver's ed, your math is off. Companies would compete for our students and their costs would be far lower than the benefits and salary we give to our instructor. Furthermore, the students would take the class because they need it to get their driver's permit. The only question is whether the community should spend about $100,000 for the class when the students could get it privately for much less.

As for golf, we offer many athletics programs. Just because we offer basketball doesn't mean we also need to offer golf, skiing, polo, or archery.

Nobody is suggesting we eliminate electives. The point is to limit how many we offer.

Where's your line in the sand? Is there not a single program in the district you feel shouldn't be funded?

And, again, how do you justify taking another man's property to fund some of these programs?

Phillip said...

Mr. Warren, I am having trouble discerning whether you are blind or simply stupid. Do you only selectively read the comments?

Aberdeener said...

Phillip,

According to your logic, the community could vote to take my house away from me. Is that what they teach you in school?

Also, debating someone is a sign of respect. I'm sure Mr. Monagle knows that considering he's on the debating team.

Aberdeener said...

Phillip,

You should also know that name-calling is often a sign of immaturity, not intelligence.

Anonymous said...

Are the property taxes solely from ceramics the make or break point in your home ownership? Taxes are here to stay whether you like them or not. We live in NJ, you'll be paying a lot of them no matter what

Phillip said...

Well Christie's already taken everything else. Why not?

But in all seriousness, there is a difference between property and money. Money is not a possession. The point of money is to be spent. That's why monetary circulation is necessary for economic growth. Just like taxes are necessary to give people like you all this money you're so scared of losing.

Phillip said...

Oh, and last I checked "stupid" isn't a name.

Aberdeener said...

Phillip,

"Money is not a possession."

Is that your final answer? :)

By the way, how much do you think I get paid for being on the school board?

Anonymous said...

'by taking away these courses you want to take away a stress-free environment for the students'

"Damn straight. I want our students to be challenged."

That's the idea! Take away any course which isn't academically challenging, and see how students are affected. It worked out great for China, where a student is more likely to kill themself as a result of academic stress than to die in traffic. Or India, where more than 20 students died in the first 19 days of 2010 because of academic stress. I'm already taking 3 AP's and an honors science (with a similar schedule for my senior year, with an additional AP), but would love to experiment with their less pricey "All work, no play" tactics here. Perhaps we could even weed out the weaker students. Survival of the fittest, right?

In fact, get rid of any low level class while you're at it! Nothing but honors and AP's for everyone! Cram 'em full! THAT will prepare them all for college.

Kids today can't afford to waste their time with relaxing hobbies! If a kid wants to be successful, you gotta cram 'em with nothing but calculus and chemistry! All facts, no fun! After all, it worked out great in Dickens' Hard Times, didn't it?

If there's one thing a college doesn't want, it's a well rounded student. Let's build up our army of scientists, and maybe one of them will even find a CURE for suicide!

People need to halt this belief that high school students are supposed to be growing as people and discovering interests and talents, but are actually suppose to learn what they need for the "real world," like physics and and how to successfully pass the HSPA.

Phillip said...

I would imagine more than most teachers.

RJD said...

Sir,

My name is Ryan Dicovitsky and I am a former student of the MARSD. I served as student representative for my senior year, represented our community, school district, and students at competitive debate tournaments, and excelled academically. I am now a student of political science at Seton Hall University, and am a legal resident of Aberdeen. As a taxpayer, brother of a current district student, concerned citizen, and rational individual, I feel the need to calmly respond to your dangerous, inaccurate, and irresponsible rhetoric and policy platforms. I have chosen to identify myself to you because as a rational adult, I have the ability to defend my positions.

To that end, I will categorically address both your claims and the claims of others who have responded. I will not, however, be naming current students by name. Your practice of doing so is dangerous and highly reprehensible. When a citizen in the public sphere submits rhetoric such as "I envision men with guns garnering your wages, plundering your bank account, and taking your home. Why? Because your neighbors voted to take more of your money than you could afford or ever agreed to pay," he or she gives in to the hateful rhetoric that currently dominates our national and local political discourse. When hateful rhetoric appears such as this, it inflames the passions of those who are truly dissatisfied or scared by public policy. As an example, I put forth both the Oklahoma City bombings and the recent domestic terrorism in Austin, Texas. Your right to feel the way you do is constitutionally protected; however, the same type of fiery, passionate, non-policy based language feeds into a zeitgeist of hate which you may or may not support. I trust you do not.

However, putting the name of a student with which you disagree online sets a dangerous course. God forbid, what if someone with similar views as you but more extreme beliefs as to a course of action singled out that student as a target? What if they viewed him as an advocate of "men with guns garnering your wages?" I urge you to be a responsible adult and deal in policy positions, not dangerous metaphors, especially when you are speaking about a high school student.

With my concerns over danger and privacy now addressed, I will move on to your policy positions.

You cite taxes as a "necessary expenditure," of which student activities do not qualify as. I pose to you a question: without career exploration, furthering of the arts, development of audio/visual skills, and drivers education, how will how our society develop? Surely, you cannot believe that all of the aforementioned activities are not critical to the proper functioning of our community, state, country, regional organization, hemisphere, and increasingly globalized world?

You're illogical conclusions are varied: there is no established educational value to magic. However, do you honestly not see some value to gun education? You use this example sarcastically, but it I counter that the concept is accurate. We establish educational systems to produce responsible members of society. If we were to follow your paradigm of necessary evils, where do curriculum cuts stop?

RJD said...

Further, why is the responsibility of parents to pay out-of-pocket costs for a private arts school? Under your assumption, why are math and English not also subject to those private outlets? What about the families who cannot afford such programs? Should we simply deprive students of the arts?

As a side note, where does your contempt for golf stem from? Why do you not single out tennis, or basketball, or track and field?

Finally, you do make a wise observation, claiming that tax proponents claim one may move elsewhere for good schools, paved roads, etc. Yet, I urge you to consider the following scenario:

I do not have children. Why should I pay for others' ceramic classes? If you believe this to be a fair assumption, I ask you a counterargument: should those who not drive be paying taxes for traffic lights and paved roads? Hopefully you would argue yes, because that non-driver would not want rogue vehicles crashing into their dining room during a lovely meal of chicken parmigiana. If you agree, wouldn't you also agree that you would prefer to avoid a nation of young adults with no arts skills, no driving knowledge, and no concept of electrical basics?

To other posters:

I urge you to remain civil. Rational discourse is the only way to promote a society of civility and peace, and note spread rhetoric claiming that taxes are similar to a violent intrusion of your private property.

To NSectionJoe:

You claim that "The costs of such programs do not lead to the whole of what is needed to live and prosper in our society. Art, dance and many other non-esential activities, instruction or programs simply cannot be sustained for the whole at the exapense of true instruction required to live ones life."

Do you truly believe this? Do you not realize that the exportation of American culture has been critical to our soft power and moral suasion on the world stage? Do you not believe proper television and radio skills are critical to a functioning military, public information system, and society of discourse?

I finally ask you all to consider one final point: where do our priorities lie, not only in Matawan but everywhere else? WHY are sports programs more valued than arts education? WHY do we not care for the children of others? Have we not entered into a social contract which should benefits all of us? Taxes are burdensome, but the larger burden is failing our future generations. The day that my country stops slaughtering innocent civilians on my dollar, or paying for other students to barely scrape by in courses but allowing them to participate in sports, will I tolerate this blatant attack against the very concept of education: spreading knowledge for the benefit of the individual and society.

Aberdeener said...

Phillip,

School board members don't get paid. Aside from snacks at the board meetings, I've never received anything from the school district.

Joe M. said...

Mr. Warren,

You're right, you did not directly chide Mr. Monagle, but I find it hard to believe that your diction- "esteemed" and "gun club"- do not have further perlocutionary meaning.

As for Driver's Ed- my math is not wrong. Having just put my son and daughter through a private company's course, I'm fairly sure I know the figures. And there are plenty of companies competing near my home, but the prices are not low. Whether you're aware or not, the driving companies know they can keep prices high and many of them are involved in serious collusion. I do not see how this problem would be alleviated in your world.

Furthermore, it wouldn't be up to the students at that point. I do not know too many 16 year old teenagers with a discretionary income of close to $1,500. Actually, I don't know many 16 year old teenagers with an income of $1,500 period. It wouldn't be up to the students to decide whether they get educated, it would be the burden of the parents, seeing as the children would be dependent on the parent to pay for the classes. As previously mentioned, families who do not have the excess income to support that will choose putting food on the table over driving instruction, causing all of the negatives I described earlier.

As for golf, I think this may be your weakest argument of all. Cutting the golf program would have the least impact of any cut to be perfectly honest because it is such a small minority of kids. Golfers pay for their clubs and personal instruction. The local course offers free instruction in return for use of their course, and actual matches are governed and paid for by the states' high school golf league, minimizing the cost of matches to the districts. Golf is not your enemy sir. These reasons are why we do not fund other sports like you mentioned.

I just don't see why an entire elective or activity must be eliminated. I do agree that obviously money must come from somewhere. I believe cutting back on funds is the first measure to take from activities, not eliminating them. Just as was done this past fiscal year- funding to all state sports and major extracurricular was scaled back, but it did not eliminate those programs, it forced them to spend their money more responsibly. Everybody could use a lesson in that.

You question the bright line to my argument, but in your world, why would you stop at just TV, Ceramics, and Golf? If taxes are inherently, but necessarily, evil, why not reduce them to the lowest point possible? Keep all the core classes, and the 5 most popular electives? 5 different classes gives students plenty of options, and the most popular ones will stick...but it seems TV and Ceramics are the most popular. By cutting these, you reduce the motivation of the students. If the students aren't motivated, you could have the greatest curriculum in the world and it won't have any influence on the students. Mr. Warren, I just cannot advocate such actions.

Also- "According to your logic, the community could vote to take my house away from me. Is that what they teach you in school?"

Actually...they can. Since you are so well versed on the Constitution, you would know it includes the eminent domain clause in Amendment 5. If the government deems that land necessary for further infrastructure (such as a road), it can take your home. Our American education system did its job with Phillip, rest assured.

Aberdeener said...

RJD,

In case you didn't know, school board meetings are videotaped, posted on the school website, and televised on the local cable channels, not to mention the minutes. I assume they were in your day as well, which makes your post so surprising.

Yes, I consider gun safety to have a greater public benefit than golf.

I've already said multiple times, nobody is advocating the elimination of all electives. We're only talking about limiting the selection.

Taxes are as I've described. If you don't believe me, see what happens when you don't pay yours.

Once again, you've failed to provide an argument how the public benefit of ceramics outweighs a person's right to his own money.

Phillip said...

And you've failed to show how cutting this program benefits the students.

Aberdeener said...

Joe M,

The fifth amendment protects individuals against government seizures.

"nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Hence you can't just take my house. You have to pay me for it and even then it can only be taken for a public use. So, no, the town can't just vote to take my house from me.

RJD said...

I'm well aware the public meetings were televised- that does nothing to excuse the combination of a students name with violence-themed rhetoric.

Please see my previous post as to the benefits of ceramics. The provision of arts education directly contributes to the cultural identity of our country. We export our culture as soft power. Would you prefer we project our national culture as not educated across a broad spectrum, and only worried about keeping its own money to the detriment of a diverse education?

Aberdeener said...

Phillip,

I believe that cutting some of these programs would benefit the students but that's not my point here.

What's your rationale for taking my money to pay for ceramics?

We're not talking about eliminating the arts program. We're not talking about eliminating electives. Let's focus on just ceramics.

Phillip said...

Well, if ceramics is the most popular, why eliminate it?

Joe M. said...

Mr. Warren,

I apologize for the miscommunication- I assumed you would know I was not speaking of the town directly, but as a governmental example. Furthermore, the state can then decide what value "just compensation" actually entails. This argument is neither here nor there, your point is still disproved that the government can take your house if they want- inherently it would be for a public use. What else would they use it for, private driving companies?

The more pressing issue here is that you dropped all of the other arguments that I presented. So either they extend and they become accepted as true, or your world simply cannot counter the empirical evidence.

Caroline said...

I'm sorry, but you answered my question:

Why are you so focused on ceramics, and ONLY ceramics? It is one of many classes in the Arts Department at Matawan. Not only that, but ceramics is taught by one of the favorite teachers at Matawan. Also, it is one of the most popular classes. So, if you really want to eliminate classes based on popularity, ceramics is completely irrelevent.

Aberdeener said...

Caroline,

If we were to compare ceramics to a drawing class, for instance, I don't believe ceramics translates into a skill that students are likely to use later in life or that can be leveraged towards other pursuits.

Drawing, I believe, teaches you perspective, a new way of looking at things, and the ability to draw which has importance in numerous occupations. Plus, even if you never need to draw, it's a skill that will always be with you, as opposed to ceramics, which requires a proper studio.

Phillip said...

How can you say that a three dimensional art does not teach perspective? It also teaches coordination, caution, and patience.

Aberdeener said...

Joe M,

Golf being cheap doesn't justify levying taxes for its support.

As for the price of driver's ed, I'm surprised you believe the private marketplace would be more expensive than a public school teacher. But, I'll try to call tomorrow and get a price for group rates.

Alison said...

I've noticed you only dignify a comment with a response if they leave their name attacted. A little rude if you ask me, but I will post it again...




'by taking away these courses you want to take away a stress-free environment for the students'

"Damn straight. I want our students to be challenged."

That's the idea! Take away any course which isn't academically challenging, and see how students are affected. It worked out great for China, where a student is more likely to kill themself as a result of academic stress than to die in traffic. Or India, where more than 20 students died in the first 19 days of 2010 because of academic stress. I'm already taking 3 AP's and an honors science (with a similar schedule for my senior year, with an additional AP), but would love to experiment with their less pricey "All work, no play" tactics here. Perhaps we could even weed out the weaker students. Survival of the fittest, right?

In fact, get rid of any low level class while you're at it! Nothing but honors and AP's for everyone! Cram 'em full! THAT will prepare them all for college.

Kids today can't afford to waste their time with relaxing hobbies! If a kid wants to be successful, you gotta cram 'em with nothing but calculus and chemistry! All facts, no fun! After all, it worked out great in Dickens' Hard Times, didn't it?

If there's one thing a college doesn't want, it's a well rounded student. Let's build up our army of scientists, and maybe one of them will even find a CURE for suicide!

People need to halt this belief that high school students are supposed to be growing as people and discovering interests and talents, but are actually suppose to learn what they need for the "real world," like physics and and how to successfully pass the HSPA.

Aberdeener said...

Phillip,

When you draw a face, you're forced to look at it in ways you never considered.

When you make a coffee mug, it's pretty much just a coffee mug. As for coordination, caution, and patience, pretty much any art will teach you that, though at a lesser level of danger. :)

Aberdeener said...

Alison,

I didn't dignify your earlier response because I think you're premise is absurd. Nobody is suggesting we eliminate all courses nor is anybody suggesting we create a boot camp that will lead to teenage suicide.

As for a challenging course load, absolutely. Students need to develop good work habits and a strong academic foundation.

Phillip said...

Are you saying that those who sculpt faces are lesser than those who draw them?

Aberdeener said...

No, but my understanding is that most students are making simple objects. Furthermore, even if students were attempting complex sculptures, my other objections would still stand.

Why isn't it enough to offer drawing and painting classes? Why must we also offer ceramics?

Caroline said...

Yes, I also believe that drawing "teaches you perspective, a new way of looking at things, and the ability to draw which has importance in numerous occupations."

But ceramics is another perspective: you have a three-dimensional way of looking at things, unlike drawing. You use your own two hands, rather than just a couple fingers that hold a pencil in place.

Secondly, have you any idea how many students sign up for ceramics every year? Although yes, it requires clay and a kiln, drawing classes need an immense amount of paper, pencils, pastels and other equipment.

Also, stating that drawing is a "skill that will always be with you," you should realize that the same goes for any of these electives that you are willing to cut.

So, why not put that money into what the majority of the students choose?

Caroline said...

Yes, I also believe that drawing "teaches you perspective, a new way of looking at things, and the ability to draw which has importance in numerous occupations."

But ceramics is another perspective: you have a three-dimensional way of looking at things, unlike drawing. You use your own two hands, rather than just a couple fingers that hold a pencil in place.

Secondly, have you any idea how many students sign up for ceramics every year? Although yes, it requires clay and a kiln, drawing classes need an immense amount of paper, pencils, pastels and other equipment.

Also, stating that drawing is a "skill that will always be with you," you should realize that the same goes for any of these electives that you are willing to cut.

So, why not put that money into what the majority of the students choose?

Phillip said...

Because it is a unique art that will help to diversify intellectual stimulation.

Alison said...

Oh Joey, you're not looking at the big picture. Restiction leads to limited exploration; limited exploration leads to limited interest; limited interest leads to obsolescence; obsolescence leads to elimination.

Aberdeener said...

I think the argument has now shifted. The question appears to be, if we're going to have cuts, why not preserve the most popular classes?

I would agree with that premise if two classes had equal educational benefit. However, in my opinion, drawing is a more valuable skill than ceramics.

When was the last time you saw someone use the skills they developed during ceramics? I work in advertising and I do arts and crafts with my children so I see the need for drawing skills on a daily basis.

Alison said...

Maybe if you took a ceramics class you WOULD be using skills from it now. How can one use what one has never developed?

Phillip said...

And that is a personal need that drawing fulfills for you. While there may not be quite as much of a demand, for others ceramics may have a more pervasive benefit that drawing.

Aberdeener said...

Alison,

You're talking in extremes. There's a balance between focus and keeping your options open. Not every program is essential.

Anonymous said...

It's fairly ignorant of you to base your reasoning on your opinion that drawing is more important than ceramics.

Anonymous said...

Alison's talking in extremes? You're the one who "envisions men with guns garnering your wages, plundering your bank account, and taking your home."

Aberdeener said...

Philip,

I'm certain you have personally witnessed people using their drawing skills, whether at home or at work.

Have you ever witnessed someone using their ceramics skills outside of an educational setting?

Joe M. said...

Mr. Warren,

You're right, golf being cheap is not the argument. But it's refuting the attack on golf, and not other sports. While not being disrespectful, golf does not require the same athletic prowess as some other sports, and at the high school age, there are few recreational venues available. For these children, golf represents there only opportunity to be part of an athletic team and learn those values-teamwork, leadership, integrity, sportsmanship- all valuable life lessons that can not only be cross applied to every day life, but are also necessary for students to progress in life into contributing adults.

And it's not me thinking prices wouldn't be competitive...it's empirical evidence I've recently been subject to by putting my children through driving school. While I'd prefer not to post my personal financial information on such a forum, I can safely say competition has not limited the price companies can charge. And once the demand for driving schools increases due to an elimination of Driver's Ed, the price is only going to rise. As simple economics shows, when customer demand increases, producers will raise prices, and since the district would be leasing out the companies, not enough new companies would be able to enter the market to provide enough competition to lower the price back down. But even at the current rate, the burden is still going to be too great to some families to bear, and as a direct representative of those people, I believe it is unfair to put them in that position

Alison said...

"Have you ever witnessed someone using their ceramics skills outside of an educational setting?"

I'd be happy to let you know next year, assuming I'll still have the opportunity to take it, that is.

Melinden said...

As a resident of this district, I am utterly appalled with the words that I have read on this page. All of you posting here should be ashamed of yourselves for openly challenging the esteemed words of Mr. Warren. I completely agree with him in all aspects and I can't see how any of you find the nerve to believe otherwise.

Ceramics is a completely pointless course. While we're at it, let's bash every other elective, just to be fair. Why would we want ceramics, which promotes self esteem through the "satisfaction of accomplishment," a quote from this very district's own mission statement? Not only is it a creative outlet and opportunity to learn a new hobby, but it very well may be the only thing keeping many students sane. After enduring a schedule full of AP courses or after trudging through a seemingly endless day of bombed pop quizzes and boring lectures, 46 minutes of ceramics doesn't sound like such an evil thing. Why in the world would we want something like that? And to pay for it out of pocket? Preposterous!

To compare ceramics and drawing is a brilliant choice, Mr. Warren. It's just like comparing apples and oranges. They're both fruits but are very different. Thus, drawing and ceramics are both art courses but are very different. In the meantime, let's discuss which of these two electives are better: economics or fashion design? They are just as similar as ceramics and drawing, so comparing to completely separate courses is a wonderful use of our time!

Let's just spend the whole night talking about ceramics and golf. In fact, while we're at it, every aspect of Mr. Warren's opinion should be made a law! Some people like ceramics and golf, some people like guns and football. Too bad for everyone! Mr. Warren is right. Period. We should praise his narrow-minded, repetitive, fruitless argument rather than challenging it.

Here's my proposition: Let's take all of the funding away from well-enjoyed courses and activities so that we can throw parades for the football team, buy them rings and varsity jackets, and decorate the lobby with their faces. After all, they've worked so much harder than the other 80% of students involved in school activities, and thus, they deserve so much more! Not to mention, some of them do take ceramics. If we don't have enough money to buy state rings, let's use some of the sizable raises given to Dr. O'Malley and Ms. Irons through the board's vote last summer!

As far as I recall, some of the board members' justification for these raises was that these two esteemed members of the district were not pulling in as much dough as their counterparts on other districts. Well, if we're going to succumb to peer pressure, let's get rid of all of our art electives, small extracurriculars, and every single athletic that doesn't merit Mr. Warren's approval, just so we can be like our surrounding districts. I only see one flaw in this otherwise foolproof plan: the other districts have not cut these!

In conclusion, I think we should all cut Mr. Warren a little more slack. He is obviously correct. Plus, if we follow his way of thinking, perhaps in 20 years or so, we'll be able to proudly say that our children grew up to be ignorant board members who spent their free time openly challenging the words of children who can't even buy a beer and polishing their gun collections while plotting the downfall of all fun. How lucky we shall be to live in such a society!

Aberdeener said...

Alison,

I don't think you have to worry about next year. Have a look at the district website.

Those pictures were posted after I objected to their funding. :)

Anonymous said...

It definitely is nice to see something other than football players tackling each other

Anonymous said...

"I would agree with that premise if two classes had equal educational benefit. However, in my opinion, drawing is a more valuable skill than ceramics.

When was the last time you saw someone use the skills they developed during ceramics? I work in advertising and I do arts and crafts with my children so I see the need for drawing skills on a daily basis."

My question is why is the opinionof Joey Warren hold more ground than the opinions of the other tax payers in the community. If I remember correctly he was not even elected to office. He won an uncontested election.

Anonymous said...

Go back to Brooklyn, cheap prick.

NSectionJoe said...

It is amazing that all of these opinions seem to want to keep programs they deem so important and crucial to a well rounded society, yet no one offered one suggestion on cutting the $6M dollars. All it seems to be is how the activity they or their child is fond of or involved in that is most important and should not be cut.

Ceramics, golf, football and all the rest should be on the block or limitied to allow and not be based on the very questionable suggested supposed stress release implied that students need today. Likewise to put into a post the supposed suicides of chinese students was also questionable in its possible intent. This is not a communist country despite recent socialist leanings and governmental spending continuing to give everything to everyone no matter what the cost. That is similar to what I tried to point out does not serve the whole.

Taxpayers whether they have children in the district, are childless, single or are seniors on limited incomes all need to be considered in the much needed revamping of educational funding. This much needed change is so needed since the price of education and its priorities are ascewed. Past decisions have likewise placed financial burdens on the whole since the school building referendum placed around $350. on each taxpayer going out thirty years alone. That is why I state that the watchdogs and leadership who did not do their jobs allowed those costs to be incurred when they could have been significantly lower for those who can least afford it or who do not partake in the use of our school system. The formula is a mess and we all know it. The changes needed in education and educational funding are monumental and very complicated. It seesm for many who posted herein to merely support or criticize anyones point because an extra activity or program might be limited or cut does little to keep in place the real and substantive educational requirements to move through life, is similarly shortsighted.

From the top on down a drastic and realitic change in the entire system is needed. That includes the give it to me because I want it montra that seems so pervasive in our society, leadership and costs are the last thing considered.

Anonymous said...

Big Joe why is always about the money with you? The schools needed improvements and the field truly was a mess. I see most of your points and I agree with most of them. To drone on about costs should not be your only and most important point. Think about it.

Anonymous said...

MATAWAN-ABERDEEN REGIONAL: Anissa Esposito, of 21 Annmar Drive filed for one three-year Matawan seat. Incumbent John Delaney of 804 Parva Place, newcomer Thelma Gattis, 216 Delaware Ave., and former board president Pat Demarest, 35 Ingram Circle, filed for two three-year Aberdeen seats.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Warren,
Is that true that rings and varsity jackets were bought with the districts money? That can't be true.

Jim said...

Anon 7:41,

It's about money because some of us are weary of property tax increases. You may not realize this, but the money for schools does have to come from somewhere.

Set aside any thoughts of improvements for a moment. It will cost the citizens a great deal more money than in the past simply to maintain the same level of services as has been offered previous years. The State of New Jersey has dramatically cut school aid, and has done so without returning any taxes collected to the people. Schools now face a difficult choice: eliminate some services, or raise taxes to meet the same level of service.

Certainly, as our governor suggests, there is an opportunity to become "leaner and meaner" within services that are retained. I would suspect, however, that 1) much of that should have already occurred, as we've been deep in this recession for quite some time, and 2) finding new savings would require quite a bit of research, and time is not on our side. Much of the existing deficit is a surprise to us, having just been announced shortly after Christie took office. Whether he was right to do what he did, I'm not here to debate - the reality is, what's done is done, and the district must adapt.

I happen to agree with the posters who speak of the personal merits of ceramics, golf, etc. I don't know with certainty that those are the right places to cut. But the money does have to come from somewhere. I would urge those fighting for their favorite programs to suggest alternatives were $6 million can be saved or raised.

Where I grew up, in Cape May County, several school districts worked together to build a vocational school. This school houses things like pottery, auto mechanics, culinary arts, carpentry, and so on. The local high schools had the very basics in electives, and there were buses navigating between the high schools and the vocational school for those pursuing advanced courses in those areas. It eventually also became a stand-alone alternative high school. It was funded in part by offering night classes in those same areas for adults in the community. I believe a similar model could work here - but it won't be built and staffed by next year, certainly. We may have to deal with fewer elective options for a while until we find a sustainable way to support them.

Aberdeener said...

Anon,

I don't know about the rings and jackets.

Anonymous said...

Rings and jackets for all players and coaches could be a total expense of $25,000. Shouldn't you be concerned about where that money came from and doesn't the board approve these expenditures?

Aberdeener said...

I believe it would need board approval. It's possible the items were purchased by Maroon and Steel.

This is the first I'm hearing of it.

Anonymous said...

I have never in my entire life felt one little bit of resentment
when I pay my taxes. Granted, New Jersey and our particular town are now taxed to the limit. But I take a lot of civic pride in our town, its a very family oriented community. I love it that most people here care more about each other then they do about their status or even their own pockets! Now, if you happen to have a value system that rates everything with a dollar sign, look at your taxes this way: families who shop for a home, look at the school system first and foremost. Young couples like to see a well rounded curriculum, and happy students! There are even guides that suggest that real estate shoppers visit the schools and note how many of the students are smiling! Not such a crazy idea, is you ask me, which you didn't but another thing...gut our school, penny and dime it to death, and you will directly effect your property values. So, for those so concerned about their own bottom line, who resent taxes as property seisures, keep that in mind the next time you drive pass a Matawan Aberdeen school! A good school system is an asset to everyone whether you have kids in the district or send them somewhere else. (And if you are still disgruntled, why not move to Somalia, a libertarian's paradise! Its every man for himself and no goverment at all! They love their guns there too)

Jim said...

Who said anything about being resentful? I happen to lack children and the possibility of obtaining them, yet I support a well-rounded school system. Yet, we are presently faced with a difficult choice, and the answer to difficult choices cannot always be to raise taxes. At some point, you have to make a call on what you can live without.

Prospective homebuyers look at the property tax rate, as well as the school system. When, less than 4 years ago, I bought my home, the taxes were around $4,800. I thought that was a manageable number. They are now around $6,200. $1,400, over 25%, increase in under 4 years. Were I looking for a new home today, I'd likely be avoiding this area.

Sam said...

Colleges want well rounded students and it is our job to prepare them to be intellectually well-rounded. We've been fortunate that we were financially able to support our children's passions. All educational research proves that children who participate in the arts and sports activities thrive in academic pursuits. School Board members should support education for all students and in all subjects. You are proving, once again, that your only agenda is to cut taxes even if that means cutting education.

Sam said...

Jim will have to avoid any area in NJ that values a strong educational system.

Aberdeener said...

"School Board members should support education for all students and in all subjects."

Hence the post's title - Bill My Neighbor

Anonymous said...

Everyone should just get off of Mr. Warren's blog.
If he were truly using it as a tool for healthy debate than he would be responding to the most logical and compelling arguments.
His attitude towards students like Phillip ("is that what they teach you in school?") and Andrew is shameful.
Clearly other Board of Ed members should be sought out for better communication and more constructive conversations.

Anonymous said...

THE SCHOOL DID NOT PURCHASE JACKETS OR RINGS FOR THE PLAYERS. THE PLAYERS ARE RAISING MONEY TO BUY THEIR OWN. I AM HELPING MY SON AS WE SPEAK TO PURCHASE HIS JACKET AND RING SO BEFORE YOU POST GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT

Aberdeener said...

Thanks for the update.

Congratulations to your son.

Anonymous said...

No one should chastise Mr. Warren for this blog. At least he puts his thoughts out, solicits response, and responds himself in most cases. None of the other board members put themselves out for public scrutiny like this man does. While all will not agree, at least you know where he stands. No other board member is accessible as he is, and you can be anonymous if you choose. YOU have the choice to not read or participate in his blog, but others like myself find a lot of useful information and lively discussion.

Anonymous said...

The purpose of this blog is to be,
"An arena of ideas for improving our quality of life and reducing our cost of living in Aberdeen Township and the Borough of Matawan in Monmouth County in the State of New Jersey."

Now I must say I do not agree with Mr. Warren on many of his points, but due to the purpose statement of this blog, his argument of cutting ceramics does make sense. It is very costly, and the popularity of the class makes it even more so, with the maximum amount of students enrolled in it.

I understand that these high school students are posting on this blog because they want this class to be saved, but honestly many of you sound pretty naive about money. I mean how many of you work a job where you actually pay taxes? So do you really have the right to say, "It’s okay if taxes are high," because you don't pay them, I do, and so do your parents.

I must say that I also agree with the majority of Mr. Monagle's statements, but many of his "friends" on here are just being immature about losing one of the funniest fluff courses available at Matawan and are really taking away his credibility and making him seem like just another whiney high school student, when in fact he is not.

Ryan said...

Mr. warren i hate to tell you how many kids pay for their own car, gas, and phone.

Oh by the way can one of the very talented ceramics please students make a ceramic gun that shoots golf balls so i may give it to Mr. Warren for his enjoyment

Anonymous said...

As adults we must be very careful what and how we say things from this point on. Students are posting on this blog.

Boobaholic said...

Joey,
Is O'Malley even recommending that ceramics be cut? Or, is this an exercise on the mindset of what people feel is important. Or, is this to prove that no matter what gets cut someone will give an explanation as to why it should stay. There has to be more important things that are really being cut that deserve more attention or an intelligent discussion, yet no one brings those issues up. How about summer school or RTI or Curriculum writing or privatizing custodians or technology cuts or 37 jobs? Six million in cuts and we need to save ceramics. Is it in or out, and lets move on to something more important before this budget is in stone.

Aberdeener said...

Aside from the programs in O'Malley's presentation, I'm not aware of any other program cuts.

Alison said...

It's true, most students are naive and don't pay taxes, but we are the ones who are directly affected by decisions like these. We have no say in any voting process, which is why our only outlet of opinion is a blog like this. Our voice is rarely heard; and when it is, is usually discredited as "naive" or "immature." I hoped adult commenters would understand this, but you yourselves are obviously just as immature (if not LESS MATURE) than us students.

You all act as if "fun is an unnecessary expense," but you have to understand the impact it has on us. As I stated before, I have a pretty challanging schedule. As important as my academic classes are, do you really think I'm dying to spend my time writing rhetorical essays or finding the integral of a function? It's my extra-ciriculars and artistic elective that gets me through the day. I'm sure all you adults have something that you look forward to everyday, even if it's just going home to see your family. Imagine if someone told you that something isn't important enough? It's no skin off their nose, right?

So I'm sorry we're "whining" and I'm sorry some of you think we're "just being immature about losing one of the funniest fluff courses available," but please excuse us for being hormone-driven teenagers.
The point we are trying to make is when the board drops a bomb like this on us, of course we aren't going to respond well. But is that really what you want for the future of this country? People taking things sitting down? I was always taught to stand up (and yes, Mr. Warren, that is what I've been learning in school). Next time you propose cutting the most popular course because it will be be the most cost effective, or the next time you support such a cut, remember who it will actually be affecting in the long run. Think about student morale, and remember cutting something with such high popularity will result with the worst reactions.

Aberdeener said...

Alison,

I give you and your peers a lot of credit. Not only do you defend your beliefs, but you don't do so under "anonymous". The ability to withstand criticism, that thick skin, is a mark of character.

The reason we're discussing ceramics is because it helps shape the debate. We're terminating or outsourcing over 10% of the staff to close a $6 million budget hole. The teachers union could save almost every teaching position by accepting the current salary guide for next year and moving to a less expensive health care plan but they've refused.

So, there are going to be cuts and taxes will go up.

The question is where do we cut and how much do we raise taxes. I'm sure you know people who are struggling. How do you explain to them that we need to raise taxes in order to save ceramics?

Anonymous said...

trying to pit the students against the teachers with that last comment? congratulations, joey. you've reached a new low.

Aberdeener said...

You like how I snuck that in about the teachers union? Glad you appreciate it.

There's more to come.

Our biggest obstacle to reform is the union leadership and I intend to keep pounding.

Melinden said...

Mr. Warren, it seems that you only respond to the posts that you have a counterattack or a witty remark for. If you don't want concerned citizens to get frustrated and stop reading this blog and giving their much-needed input altogether, I suggest you respond to each aspect of every posting, since much thought and effort was much into many of them. Therefore, I request that you address my earlier posting.

Also, in addition to Alison's posting: I thought her remarks were very true and well-said. However, I would just like to point out that I DO currently have two jobs and contribute to the taxes in this community, and I would like to say that it's about time some of the adults on here stop generalizing and grouping all teenagers together. Some of us (or ever most of us) might just surprise you.

Alison said...

That is exactly my point. Teachers refuse because they have the option to refuse. Students however, are forced to accept whatever is given to them.

I understand cuts have to be made, but why so concentrated? Many commenters are demanding alternatives, so here is mine: Spread the wealth (or lack of wealth?) and cut more fairly from more programs. That's only an idea from a naive seventeen year old, but its the best I got.

A. Monagle said...

Ladies and Gentlemen, I appreciate your concern for my reputation and the statements that I had made. I know that there probably wouldn’t be almost 100 comments on this page within 24 hours if my statements had no merit.

The first thing that must be understood when discussing the statements that I had made at the last board meeting, and that is the roll that my position plays. According to bylaw 0143.2 (which can be found on the district website) the Student Representative to the Board of Education “represents the views of the student body,” and the BOE recognizes that “experience gained by pupils in the district to be a valued source for improving the operation of the school district.” With that being said, I’d like to say that at the last board meeting, I was simply doing my job as the Student Rep. My job is not to fully understand the system (quite frankly, few of us truly do), or to constantly be thinking of the concerns of the taxpayers, however it is simply to relay the opinions of the students, through appropriate means, to the BOE. One other statement relating to the aforementioned subject, not every student balances a checkbook, that much is true: However, when the public begins to chastise students for voicing their opinions appropriately (though not all do), they, no matter what age, become just as bad as the “immature students” that begin and end their posts on this blog with sarcasm. Thus I echo RJD when I ask everyone to remain civil and appropriate when discussing this matter.

I will begin by examining the primary classes that are desired to be cut by Mr. Warren: Ceramics, TV Production, Scene Study, and a class teaching the use of computer applications (the name of the class escapes me). Ceramics has been the subject of much debate, so instead of rehashing old points, I will begin with the second of the mentioned subjects: TV Production. Something that we are forgetting is that the Board of Education has, in the recent past, recognized the importance of this course. Just two years ago, we spent money (I’m not quite sure of the exact amount) to revamp the TV studio, and bring it out of the dismal state hat it was in during my freshman and sophomore years. The class not only teaches a hands-on application of using video and editing equipment, but also teaches a set of valuable skills that will be used throughout the rest of the student’s life: time management, and more importantly-team work. This and more on this subject will be examined later in this post.

Next, Mr. Warren continuously asks for alternatives from students to the proposed slicing and dicing of popular programs, loved by many students. Look no further ladies and gentlemen here are the alternatives. Instead of putting programs on the chopping block, scale back some, and cut a few of the more unnecessary classes (i.e. children’s lit, one of the courses that I agree should be cut). Scale back some of the existing programs: for example, in Ceramics, one project is produced every week…scale it back. Insist that students take more time on each project, (planning it out more carefully, etc) to produce a better quality piece, and have a student make a piece every 2 weeks. You’ll cut the number of supplies needed for the class, and thus cut money needed to fund the class.

A. Monagle said...

Another item mentioned as far as these classes go, and that is numbers of students not going to college, and number of students leaving college without a degree. As far as I can see, these numbers have no bearing on the elective classes spoken of, and after doing research of my own, I could not find the numbers that Mr. Warren was referring to at the board meeting (and I ask that someone kindly points me in the right direction). Regardless, we need to come to terms with the fact that not every student will graduate college, enroll in a university, or even graduate high school, thus, these classes are a necessity. They provide an opportunity for a student to explore a career that does not require a four, or even a two-year degree (another reason why scaling back is the better alternative to cutting indefinitely).

I’d like to quickly address another area, Driver’s Education. I absolutely agree with RJD on the merits of the program (and when you compare it to gun education, it’s much more valuable…more people own cars than on guns in NJ). Driver’s Education, although not defined as a requirement for graduation explicitly, fulfills every sophomore’s health requirement. Until I see the numbers for a family paying for the Driver’s Ed. classes, I’m sorry Mr. Warren, but I must agree with father of two, Joe M. Not every family has the financial stability to afford a $1,500 expense. I’ll do the math later tonight, and tell you how much this $350 per student truly costs if every tax paying resident splits the cost equally (which they do to the best of my knowledge).

Speaking of these numbers, the electives are not the cause of student’s failure. Mr. Warren showed no causation between the numbers and the elective courses discussed (my apologies if I missed something on this blog or at the board meeting). If we want to truly address this problem, we need to look at the true cause, a student’s motivation for achieving his or her fullest educational potential.

These were the points that I was trying to make at the last BOE meeting; not every program has merits, many do. We cannot cut haphazardly based on numbers of drop-outs not pertaining to the electives, we need to look for ways to keep the wide array of electives offered, while cutting where we can; not that every program has at least one student to support it, so we can’t cut anything. Again I apologize for anything that I had said that could have been misconstrued; hopefully, this post clears up everything that I mentioned at the BOE meeting.

Allow me to leave you with a few of my personal beliefs on the matter. Every student should be challenged, and should work up to their potential. Not every student is, has been, or will be motivated, however, the majority are. Finally, although I am not a taxpayer, I understand that cuts unfortunately must be made. I understand the value of the dollar, and am thinking even now, how I will be able to pay my way out of $100,000 of student loans. However, in the end, I do believe that every student has the right to voice their opinions, regardless of whether they pay taxes or not, about everything that affects them.

Thank you for your time. I hope I was clear in what I have said; if I was not, feel free to post a comment and ask!

Anonymous said...

BRAVO Mr. Monagle BRAVO

Aberdeener said...

Mr. Monagle,

Welcome to the party. I'm honored you can join us.

The problem with your suggestion of scaling back is that the vast majority of expenses are personnel.

Let's say the teacher earns $55,000 a year, plus $15,000 in health benefits, then pensions, professional development, etc. I don't know how much we spend on supplies be even if it were thousands, that would still be a small fraction of the total cost.

However, you are correct that there are many areas we could conceivably scale back and the sum of those efforts could be substantial. You make some good suggestions.

Regarding post-college, the administration maintains a list of seniors' post-high school plans. I took the list and looked up the graduation (or success) rates for each institution, then simply did the math to create a projection. I submitted the results to the entire board but did not publicize the list itself as I don't know if it's public information.

To give you one example, over a third of last year's graduates attended Brookdale Community College, which has a 70% dropout rate.

On TV production, we spent about $150,000 for the upgrades. However, that is a sunken cost; having spent money doesn't justify spending more money.

I'll look into the cost of drivers ed but I can't see how a private company could be more expensive than the public school, considering pay and benefits.

Still, the crux of my question remains. How do we determine the appropriateness of taxing our neighbors to fund a particular program?

Anonymous said...

I would really like to commend Mr. Monagle for his last two posts. I am also a student who is concerned about the budget cuts that could be put in place. Mr. Monagle seems to be one of the very few students on this blog who are actually trying to think of reasonable solutions. He is not sitting around complaining about how the beloved ceramics might be cut, or trying to justify why it should be kept, he is giving legitimate suggestions. I find a comment like his to be very mature, he is not stating how he takes so many challenging courses and how the school should revolve around his needs, he is thinking about everyone. It makes me very proud that he is our student representative.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Warren- I am not sure how long you have lived in our town but a few years back our neighborhood schools were controversially redistricted into the configuration they are now in. If we went back to neighborhood schools (K-5) would we be able to save any substantial money, for instance, with busing?

Also- didn't the APP have an article (http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=20103010327) from Bret Schundler yesterday that said schools will get the same amount of aid as last year? If this is the case isn't all this talk of cuts a moot point?

Kudos to all the Matawan students who so eloquently expressed their opinions on this blog. You all are fine examples of the intellegent student body of MARSD. Your parents and teachers should be proud.

Christine said...

"Still, the crux of my question remains. How do we determine the appropriateness of taxing our neighbors to fund a particular program?"

How has this been determined until now? Was there a system of approval courses had to meet to get funding specifically from taxes?

Aberdeener said...

Anon,

The article advises school districts to budget for 15% cuts and that's what we're doing. If we discover we're getting additional funds, we'll likely restore some programs. Since the budget will have already been set, I don't think any new money will go to tax relief.

Christine,

Our school district has always had the philosophy that we should spend whatever we can afford for education. Therefore, any program that didn't create an excessive burden could be established. However, once established, a program becomes very difficult to cut because it draws a following and the instructor gains tenure.

Aberdeener said...

We've had a lot of discussion on the will of the majority. Any proposed tax increase will likely be rejected at the ballot box.

What's the rationale, then, for raising taxes anyways?

Anonymous said...

Rumor has it, that back in the day, in Brooklyn, our boy was caught with another boy, using a ceramic vase in a rather unorthodox way.

Could this be the reason for him targeting ceramics class?

Jim said...

Aberdeener,

Perhaps you should post a PayPal "Donate" button that deposits directly to the school's accounts. This would give the students an opportunity to directly contribute to their education, and I'm certain that there are others here arguing the merits of each and every program that would gladly contribute above and beyond their "fair share" collected in property taxes.

(I'm joking. I think...)

Anonymous said...

Can anyone give a list of classes that are mandatory versus those that are free electives? So far it looks like DE and Ceramics are the only two electives.

Anonymous at 8:09 you are said...

Anonymous at 8:08 you are a sick F.

Play Ball said...

Monagle so let me get this straight your idea on solving a 5 or 6 million dollar project is using less clay? While I realize that that your one suggestion is minimal your others will also have people whining no matter what the school board will have to do to cut the 5-6 million dollars.

Less use of clay? Get serious young man we are talking millions not hundreds of dollars. The over spending boards of the past spent millions unwisely allowing for insignificant and do nothing classes like ceramics and others to be the norm.

Back to the three R's is what is needed in our educational system not less clay made projects made less frequently.

Anonymous said...

Way back yesterday, at 10:43, Mr. Aberdeener said: "...over a third of last year's graduates attended Brookdale Community College, which has a 70% dropout rate." Brookdale's general ed credits are accepted at most, it not all, of our public colleges. Kids enroll at Brookdale, pay considerably less, and then transfer the credits and graduate from a different institution. As a bottom line kind of guy, I'm sure our host can get behind the practicality of that! So let's stop bashing Brookdale.

Jim said...

Is there any way to establish transfer rates vs. complete dropouts?

Anonymous said...

I think Brookdale has a high dropout % because kids who are unsure of college and their future will tend to go there to see if college is for them. Rather than going to a higher priced private or even public institution.

The post above is also valid. How do you distinguish between transfer and dropout?

Aberdeener said...

Brookdale defines success as any student who completes an associates degree or transfers to a 4-year institution within three years of enrollment.

Their success rate is only 30%.

second time student mom said...

As an Alumni of Brookdale (continuing education) I can tell you that Brookdale has to rely on it's Alumni to fill out and RETURN a survey in order to collect that "success rate" data, Mr. Warren. It happened to a sore spot with many professors, department heads and student organizations on campus while I was there. They felt the system the college used was very unreliable( I agreed, as a member of the legal studies student org.) So, let's not lose track of legitamate discussion debating Brookdale-- it is a good stepping stone, alternative school for kids.....and adults :), who want to continue their education.

Christine said...

"Back to the three R's is what is needed in our educational system not less clay made projects made less frequently."

When is the last time you went through the college application process? You need more than SAT scores to get into a good college (a lot of colleges on the East Coast don't even look at writing scores).

And no, the district cannot save 6 million dollars by using less clay. They also can't save 6 million dollars by cutting ceramics, drivers ed, all the dramas, and probably even athletics together.

Why is this being concentrated on the high school? What about the redistricted busing situation? Or the middle school activities like track, field hockey, and cheerleading that were added in recent years?

And I agree with Monagle about courses such as Children's Lit. Others such as Forensic science (where all students really did was watch CSI) should also be considered because students are already taking English and science every year.

Play Ball said...

Christine I have to ask you if we spend more money on inconsequential and fluff type courses put in place merely to fulfill grade and graduation requirements, are we really preparing students to survive in the real world that changes greatly every single day?

The three R's worked for generations but now we have teachers, counselors and life coaches changing everything about education at an extreme cost.

The costs to each and every taxpayer is now the most important thing. This as the out of control costs of education are astronomical without real and substantive education. The fluff in our society needs to be merely something you put on a peanut butter sandwich.

That is the stark reality that comes from leadership at every level giving everything to a public too used to getting everything they want, no matter what the costs. The costs matter. The fluff does not.

Play Ball said...

By the way Christine the facts that as you stated (many colleges do not even look at writing scores) is in itself another sign of the very real and contemptible problems in education. Agree?

Christine said...

Well, we could argue about the necessity of fluff courses that are merely "graduation requirements" but that would be pointless because, as far as I know, Christie hasn't changed the state requirements to only include the three Rs.

As for preparation for the real world, that is where I believe electives come in. Calculus did not prepare me for the real world. Neither did studying the symbolism of Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby".
My activities and elective(s) prepared me to manage my time and think outside the box.

And in all honesty, the writing section of the SAT isn't much to look at. One's writing ability should not be judged solely on how one answered the question "Is fame really worth everything?" in 25 minutes. But yes, I do agree that there are many issues with the education system, encompassing everything from administration at all levels to the attitudes of students.

Anonymous said...

There was a piece in the Times a few weeks ago about a new avenue to a high school diploma that is being adopted in a few states, our's included! At selected high schools, (I don't know the qualifications for selection) after two years, the students may take a series of board examinations , which, when passed, allow the student to graduate. The idea is that the more motivated kids will hit the books big time, pass the boards, and get out and move on to college, thus saving the school and themselves time and money. We should look into that.

Anonymous said...

Can't wait to see what that costs us. Motivation and all that mumbo jumbo is BS.

The system has worked since time and memoriam and the costs of the system is out of control. Not just here but elsewhere. Asbury park for example spends $25 thousand per student. Look at the rate of graduation there. Trenton and Camden even worse on both fronts.

It is broken and needs to be fixed.

Anonymous said...

Christine in case you have not noticed Gov. Christie has been in Trenton for about five weeks. Much like the rest of society you throw him out there while ignoring all the rest still sitting and feeding at the trough of failed leadership and lackluster education that they caused. Don't blame the guy who just sat down behind the desk for five weeks, that is shortsighted and too obvious of your true intent.

Anonymous said...

She can't help it. She has been taught by the same people who spent millions of dollars to not get him elected. It is no wonder the liberal viewpoint of tax and spend are rampant amongst these youth who are posting. I wonder how many will have the same viewpoint 20 years from now if we continue to let our generation spend us into oblivion and make them pay for it.

Oldy but Goody said...

Wednesday, July 28, 2004
The Independent - July 28th 2004

Mr. Warren,

I thought you enjoy this "blast from the past" article-- perhaps it will help you illustrate for some of the younger bloggers, who were actually probably in elementary or beginning middle school at this time-- why our budget situation has become as bad as it is-- aside from the fiscal state of NJ-- I can't remember a contract that did not play out just like this article illustrates( even if "what's your point?" wrote the article!).

Question- Perhaps you can educate your readers on exactly where MARSD ranks in salary rate in Monmouth County in 2010? I bet we are in top 3.

Tuesday, July 27, 2004
Mediator appointed in Matawan school dispute


Published in the Asbury Park Press 7/27/04
By RODNEY POINT-DU-JOUR
KEYPORT BUREAU
MATAWAN -- Although a mediator has been appointed to help break the impasse in contract talks between the Matawan-Aberdeen Regional Board of Education and Matawan Regional Teachers Association, some doubt has been cast on the likelihood of a smooth start of school in September.
The state Public Employee Relations Commission has appointed Thomas Hartigan as the mediator, said Laura Venter, the school district business administrator.

Venter said both sides have a mediation session scheduled for Sept. 9, the day school is to reopen.

Venter said she remains optimistic but is unsure if the talks will be completed by the beginning of the new school year.

"He (Hartigan) is an experienced mediator, and we expect the negotiations to go swiftly and for us to reach an amicable agreement," Venter said.

Officials on both sides have said they hope an agreement is reached by September to ensure classes resume without a hitch.

In 2001, union representatives and district officials agreed to give the union members a three-year contract that came with a 12 percent pay increase staggered over three years. The union members were also given an increase in co-payments for medical insurance, $2,000 in dental coverage and $150 in optical coverage. That contract expired on June 30.

In June, after nearly eight months of negotiations, the regional school board and the teachers union reached an impasse. Despite both sides calling the sessions peaceful, union and board negotiators decided they needed a mediator to help them reach an agreement.

Carl Kosmyna, the president of the teachers association, said the union members want to maintain their benefits and are looking to raise their wages comparable to what teachers are making in other districts throughout the county.

"We're hopeful the mediator will come in, help us with the negotiations and get us a settlement," Kosmyna said. "What we're looking for isn't outrageous. We just want what everyone else is getting."

Among the seven K-12 districts in Monmouth County, teachers in Matawan-Aberdeen had the second highest median salary, $58,400 in 2003-04 school year, according to the state Department of Education's Comparative Spending Guide.

Ocean Township teachers had the highest median salary among the seven with $65,405 for the same school year, the guide indicated. The other five districts are Holmdel, Long Branch, Middletown, Neptune and Wall.

Statewide, the median salary for a teacher at K-12 district is just under $50,000, according to the guide.

The Matawan Regional Teachers Association has approximately 400 members, including teachers, custodians and bus drivers.

This story includes information from previous Asbury Park Press articles.

Anonymous said...

http://www.nytimes.com/
2010/03/03/education/03ravitch.
html?ref=todayspaper

"Diane Ravitch,the education historian who built her intellectual reputation battling progressive educators and served in the first Bush administration’s Education Department, is in the final stages of an astonishing, slow-motion about-face on almost every stand she once took on American schooling.

Once outspoken about the power of standardized testing, charter schools and free markets to improve schools, Dr. Ravitch is now caustically critical...

... But Dr. Ravitch is finding many supporters. She told school superintendents at a convention in Phoenix last month that the United States’ educational policies were ill-conceived, compared with those in nations with the best-performing schools.

“Nations like Finland and Japan seek out the best college graduates for teaching positions, prepare them well, pay them well and treat them with respect,” she said. “They make sure that all their students study the arts, history, literature, geography, civics, foreign languages, the sciences and other subjects. They do this because this is the way to ensure good education. We’re on the wrong track.”

The superintendents gave Dr. Ravitch a standing ovation."

Anonymous said...

What is the union leader thinking? Less teachers mean larger class sizes and they may have to work harder. Besides, more teachers, more union dues, more money to buy political clout. Back then he just wanted what everyone else was getting. That has never been the case. Notwithstanding the excellent pay and benefits teachers want salaries in line with the private sector and maybe they should be. However they and their union want none of the drawbacks of the private sector.

Christine said...

I'm not throwing Christie under the bus for anything. I was simply replying to Play Ball that state requirements are state requirements. If he believes in only funding the 3 Rs, that is something to be brought up at the state level, not starting with town. If you read the posts above mine, that should have been made clear, but I apologize if it was not.

Play Ball said...

Thanks Christine. Please understand many people have grandiose ideas on what they want and why they want it and don't care of the cause, affect or cost. The three R's has been neglected for too long for every imaginable reason with deveistating costs across the board. The change does need to start at the federal and state level. The only problem is they are never accountable and never own up to their mistakes either. That is called leadership NJ style.

Anonymous said...

Play Ball-
3 R's?? We've always had the 3 R's with every learning level from basic to advanced. If the scores aren't good it's because you can't throw a good pot with bad clay. But you would have known that if you took ceramics.

Even if you cut out all the electives and just put in the 3 R's the students still need 130 plus credits to graduate. That means you need the same amount of teachers to fulfill the same amount of classes to fulfill the same amount of credits for the same amount of students. AND the "getting into college" rate would drop significantly because Christine is right-colleges want well rounded students. Ours would not be "well rounded". Matawan/Aberdeen would become a very undesirable place to live making the value of your home worth even less than it is now.

Christine said...

This is true. Teachers can try to throw as much information at students about reading, writing, and math as humanly possible in 4 years, but if the student doesn't choose to try or isn't motivated, it doesn't matter if they are assigned 40 essays a week or once a year, scores will still be bad.

Play Ball, I'm glad my message got through, and with all due respect I'm not undermining the importance of the 3 Rs. If you can't proficiently utilize at least the basics of them, then I really do not understand how one can function in society. (Then again, I also have a hard time believing how so many of my former classmates could not pass the HSPA.) And for those who have difficulty grasping the concepts, then yes, they do need to get more help with that in favor of a course like ceramics. Luckily, last I checked, the high school has remedial courses specifically for those who fail, where they are required to use an elective space to take HSPA math or writing for half the year in hopes of passing next time around if they work hard enough.

However, it has gotten to the point where more is necessary to succeed as well. Even fifty years ago, not everyone went to college. Over the years it has gotten more and more competitive to get in as more and more people are applying to colleges. I remember being told as early as the 5th grade that it was possible to be a straight A student, but if I didn't back my grades up with other interests, it would be extremely hard to get into a good school or get a scholarship.

Play Ball said...

This is not a time when you cannot wrap a really cheap present with wrapping paper and a bow and think the present is still not cheap. The expensive and possiby unnecessary programs, extra remedial help and of course teachers and overpriced administrators to do all that work is also needed. What may have been needed for many students today was a good swift kick in the pants? There is a lack of drive and attention to detail for too many.

Also needed is a willingness to be involved as a parent or guardian. A large segment of our society who are overworked, unprepared or uneducated is a main cause of an uncaring attitude by students who merely sit taking up space or as a serious distraction to those students who want to learn. That is a cause not measured in dollars.

These few examples are the societal reality of our schools today. Counselors and administrators who coddle disruptive kids just because some lawyer may sue the district.

Many problems exist in every district. Our district is no less a mess then an Asbury Park or Trenton. And the money is the thing in all. It has been thrown around and misused for years and the costs are crushing and too often not enabling many households to afford college at a reasonable and unpressuring level.

It must be said that there is without a doubt a continuing breakdown in parental control, student responsibility and more. Long gone are the days when children were only viewed as being moldable and impressionable. Every generation seems to be lazier then the one before over the last fifty years or so. Like they say "Whats The Matter With KIds Today"?

The list for the most part would be long. No physical activity or maybe technology lazy would be the politically correct name. Just ask a student when they read a book not related to school or rode a bike, went fishing or hiking.

There are many reasons for educational and societal problems and this blog won't solve them.

Look at healthcare for instance. Leadership knows of the abuses and full well that the entire system is broken. What is the answer more money, more money and yes more money. Education is no different.

Anonymous said...

My friend is a teacher here in district. Called upset yesterday because Union is having teachers had a scary flyer to parents at conferences today. She says it is about the custodians and says that it will make parents think only criminal pediphiles will be cleaning schools. I said "If you don't like it, don't hand it out!". She said the pressure is too much and others will know if she does not do it. What is this the Mob? Disgusting when a teacher can't do what she feels is right because of "union big brother"!

just a mom said...

Typical of scared and allegiant union people while also too obvious a desperate ploy by the unions to blame everyone but themselves. Where is the true notice to hand out to teachers that says some of my coworkers are lazy and should not be teachers any longer? Or better yet the one about the salaries of administrators merely kept in place sine they know all the improper things done for years. Thatis the handout I would like to see at the Middle School parents nite.

Aberdeener said...

I have a copy of the poster and the union marching orders and I'll be writing about it next week.

The union could save every custodial position if it agreed to stick with the current salary guide for one more year.

The union leadership only cares about the union leadership.

Anonymous said...

In response to anon 11:09.

You'd still need 130 credits to graduate, but you'd have to choose from less electives. I don't know how many free electives there are (outside of ceramics and DE), but rather than choose from 8 a student must now choose from 4 -for example (again, only an example to illustrate my point).

Yes, colleges want well rounded students, however that is considered after SAT test scores and grades and probably only for candidates "on the bubble". Also, there are more ways for a student to be more well-rounded. Community involvement, boy/girl scouts, volunteer organizations, recreational sports, interests/hobbies, part-time jobs, etc. I also think prospective employers would consider these more than they would a free elective class in high or college for that matter.

Owen Cash said...

Aberdeener,

I saw in the paper that Pat Demarest is running for the board again. I hope she can save the custodians, the teachers union loves her. Why did she take a year off? Why is she running with Rev. Gattis from Cliffwood, when I read in your blog that she lied to her about getting appointed to the unexpired board seat last year? What is Demarest promising her now?

Anonymous said...

aberdeener said
"The union could save every custodial position if it agreed to stick with the current salary guide for one more year. The union leadership only cares about the union leadership."

Although, I might agree with this statement, Mr. Warren is on the negotiations committee. This is not negotiating in "good faith." Wonder what the union attorneys have to say about this? I hope they are reading this bc it is probably enough to get Warren off of the nego committee.

Aberdeener said...

Neither side gets to determine who can or can't represent the other side.

I hope the union membership is reading this so I'll say it again.

If the union were to stick with the current salary guide, we could save every custodial position.

Anonymous said...

First of all I am not happy with my taxes here in town but I understand that the way we fund our schools is by property tax , that is the problem people like you Joey that rent are not paying there fair share people that rent in the garden apartments have 4 kids living in a two bed room apartment and putting the tax on the home owner . so if everyone paid there fair share renters and illegals in town we would not be fighting over budget cuts , Trenton needs to address this as well as the town by compiling the students address and matching it with there residents occupancy limits paying 1200 rent and sending 4 kids to school is a bargan, the problem is the way we fund the school not the teachers or custodian or the ceramic class

Anonymous said...

Mr Warren you statement teachers union can save jobs by staying at current levels that may be true , but maybe the ceramics class could have stayed if O mallay and Irons would have stayed at there current level the leadership needs to lead by example. You ask for people not take a cost of living raise and then give bonus to people on the board for doing a good job ,less than a year later we are in a hole for 6 mill. Greed Greed Greed

Anonymous said...

Watch out. O'Malley wants more. He wants to re-do his contract again. What a great country.

Anonymous said...

To anon 2:02 pm.

I doubt rentors are not paying tax. That would mean the landlords are paying it on their behalf.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous the question is that are the renters paying there fair share of taxes I personelly know of 5 families that live in ken gardens that rent a one bedroom apartment and send two children to our schools , the tax that the owner of the rental property pays taxes but are they paying there fair share I think not because I looked at the tax that they pay on each unit